Group charges

Ask a question about rules
Adrian Steer
Capitaine
Messages : 206
Enregistré le : ven. 4 sept. 2020 20:17

Re: Group charges

Message par Adrian Steer » mer. 2 mars 2022 21:47

Actually Roger it says Artillery and skirmishers can't charge nothing about them ending in contact ( page 42). Thus they can't be part of a charging group even if they don't end up not in contact.

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Group charges

Message par RogerGreenwood » mer. 2 mars 2022 23:56

It depends what a charge is. One way to read it is that a charge is a move to end in contact by a unit. I read it this way because all the other rules on charging are about charging units. Hence, a charge being made by a group move simply means some units in the group end in contact. Pretty clearly other units in the group do not follow the restrictions on charging (only wheeling at the start etc.) Typically supports can be in the same group but are not attempting to end in contact.
The way some people are reading it is that a charge move made by a group means the whole group is charging and can only include units capable of charging. I do not favour this interpretation as it creates a new type of group move. It makes some unusual interpretations. For example I think it very reasonable that skirmishers should move alongside the flank of charging units adding their fire support.

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Group charges

Message par RogerGreenwood » jeu. 3 mars 2022 00:07

This all depends on the meaning of the sentence that includes the rule that a charge can be made by a group.
I would like it to say "A group move can include charging units"
Adrian, you want it to say something like "A group move including charging units may include only units capable of charging"

Avatar du membre
hcaille
Général de Division
Messages : 848
Enregistré le : jeu. 3 janv. 2019 09:48

Re: Group charges

Message par hcaille » mer. 16 mars 2022 07:00

Hello
To clarify this point : A limbered artillery cannot move during a charge move because it will not particpate to the combat.

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Group charges

Message par RogerGreenwood » mer. 16 mars 2022 10:36

We are discussing group moves here.

Skirmishers moving with the chargers could add fire support.

Artillery could unlimber and add fire support.

How do you decide which units can be in a charging group?
If it is only those who can support the charge then how is a skirmisher giving fire support different to an infantry unit giving fire support?

I know I am arguing with the author, but it might be worth looking at this one for the next version. It makes the game and the rules much easier if a group move can include charging units. Otherwise you have to create a new rule about charging groups, what can be in them and how they move.

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Group charges

Message par RogerGreenwood » mer. 16 mars 2022 14:41

Consider:
X is enemy infantry, A, B and S are my group. The first two are infantry, S is a skirmisher. A is about 3.5 UD from X as below.

X

A S
B

For 1 CP I can advance to 1 UD of X, S will be a little behind, outside 2 UD and shoot in support.

However, if A is to move just 1 UD more, into contact with X, the move now costs 2 CP because S has to be a separate move to come into a fire support position. (Skirmishers cannot charge, so cannot group move with A and B.)

S ends in the same position and shoots at the same target. Why should it be more difficult to command this move than a move that ends short of contact?

Adrian Steer
Capitaine
Messages : 206
Enregistré le : ven. 4 sept. 2020 20:17

Re: Group charges

Message par Adrian Steer » mer. 16 mars 2022 20:33

Is perhaps the answer to the conundrum is that troops that offer fire support don't move during the charge but are already in position to fire on the enemy if its stationary or in a position to fire at them as they charge in? Just a thought ;)

Avatar du membre
hcaille
Général de Division
Messages : 848
Enregistré le : jeu. 3 janv. 2019 09:48

Re: Group charges

Message par hcaille » lun. 28 mars 2022 07:50

When you do a group move, all units must form a group a the begining and at the end.
Units do not need to stay in the same position or advance the same distance
In your example, A can charge X and be supported by B on its rear and have the supportng fire of S.
S can stay at 3 UD from X and be at 2 UD from A or B
It will cost only 1 CP

You need to spend 2 CP if for example S was away from A and cannot form a group with A.

Note that limbered artillery cannot participate to a charge. It have no time to advance, unlimber and fire to support a charge.
Artillery must be unlimbered before the charge to be able to support it. And as the charge are done before other moves, artillery must be in place the turn before.

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Group charges

Message par RogerGreenwood » lun. 28 mars 2022 08:48

I understand your intention here. Unfortunately the rules do not read like this. There is one sentence that states "artillery and skirmishers cannot charge".
I look forward to this all being clear in the new version.

Hazelbark
Adjudant
Messages : 85
Enregistré le : mar. 19 mars 2019 21:01

Re: Group charges

Message par Hazelbark » jeu. 31 mars 2022 02:08

RogerGreenwood a écrit :
lun. 28 mars 2022 08:48
I understand your intention here. Unfortunately the rules do not read like this. There is one sentence that states "artillery and skirmishers cannot charge".

I understand your point, while disagreeing. It is not as clear as one would like, but I think you have over invested in a certain conclusion. As you say lets make it clearer for future.

Répondre