Skirmishers in a building

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RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Skirmishers in a building

Message par RogerGreenwood » mar. 7 juin 2022 14:54

This one caused some amusement.
A French cavalry unit advances on some Austrian skirmishers that are detached from a large unit. Only two of the three skirmishers are within 4UD of the cavalry. They elect to take cover in a building. Normally with a medium unit the two would re-combine to become one unit. However, as they are only two of the three parts of the unit what happens?
a) The third part must join them
b) Only one skirmisher is permitted to enter the building
c) something else

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zeitoun
Maréchal d'Empire
Messages : 1066
Enregistré le : sam. 19 janv. 2019 15:57

Re: Skirmishers in a building

Message par zeitoun » mar. 7 juin 2022 17:49

I agree it's strange

imo i Will say. All or one. Allowed only 2 of them To reconbined seems not resonnable.

I Will be a very happy man if we act to cancel the SK.from the rules 😁😁

I try To find the answer Asap.
Cordialement

Olivier M

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Skirmishers in a building

Message par RogerGreenwood » mer. 8 juin 2022 07:55

Yes, we have more trouble with skirmishers than anything else. It would be nice to have a better way to represent small jager units and the like.
Perhaps having Jagers and Voltigeurs as an addition to skirmisher range of 2UD available to some units.

E.g. French get voltiguers (max 4) at 5 points giving selected units a 5UD skirmisher fire range.

A bit radical, but more easy to deal with.

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Skirmishers in a building

Message par RogerGreenwood » mer. 8 juin 2022 08:27

Continuing the above idea - make jagers etc. like battalion guns. Use a representative single base with a unit, maybe allow it to be transferred from one unit to another within 2UD at the start of the turn.

KeefM
Sergent Major
Messages : 77
Enregistré le : jeu. 26 déc. 2019 07:59

Re: Skirmishers in a building

Message par KeefM » mer. 8 juin 2022 08:48

Interesting ideas ...

Personally I quite like how detached skirmishers work in BE. It would be a shame to lose them from the game entirely as they do add considerable nuances to how difficult terrain influences the game. As an aesthetic, they add to the "look" of the game too. (Plus, do we really want to give up on being able to use the 95th rifles as skirmishers in BE ? After all, where would we be without Sharpe ?)

Across our numerous games, we haven't had any issues with how they work in-game once we got the hang of falling back away from formed infantry and cavalry that come within 2/4 UD. We find that they aren't an overpowering presence in the game, and have sufficient drawbacks to allow them to be easily dealt with.

The clarifications about how they fall back also helped ...

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Skirmishers in a building

Message par RogerGreenwood » mer. 8 juin 2022 09:05

The skirmisher rules don't work too badly, but they do make the game a bit longer and add complexity.
With a single base as a representation you can have Sharpe and his mates represented too. I would miss my Jagers.

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zeitoun
Maréchal d'Empire
Messages : 1066
Enregistré le : sam. 19 janv. 2019 15:57

Re: Skirmishers in a building

Message par zeitoun » mer. 8 juin 2022 10:49

Hi All,

I tell you my point of view if you can answer to this question :

can you explain to me how it's possible to detached SK to fire farther than a LINE units ?

I understand the concept of integrated FT, as they move some meters in front of the line. So I can understand that intergrated FT 1 shoot at 3 UD (if they are deployed at 1 UD from the line)
..
But what about detached SK ? did they have superguns??

Regards..
Cordialement

Olivier M

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Skirmishers in a building

Message par RogerGreenwood » mer. 8 juin 2022 12:58

Might it have something to do with the rules not letting skirmishers within 2UD of formed troops? 🤪

It would be interesting to know if formed troops without skirmishers were prevented from shooting back at skirmishers by their officers. They presumably could all fire the same distance but it wasn't worth the effort.
I believe that for many soldiers the first volley was the 'big shot' because it had been carefully loaded out of combat. After that the pressure of reloading under fire reduced their effectiveness.

KeefM
Sergent Major
Messages : 77
Enregistré le : jeu. 26 déc. 2019 07:59

Re: Skirmishers in a building

Message par KeefM » jeu. 9 juin 2022 08:51

By way of a speculative answer to your questions about why SK shoot 3 UD ...

If we can accept that integral skirmishers shooting out to 3 UD represent a skirmish screen that are deployed ahead of the main body of line infantry, then we are already accepting (conceptually at least) that although our solid base of toy soldiers occupies a single point, there is invisible area in front of the base in which activity is taking place.

In that regard, then, it is perfectly logical that detached SK can shoot 3 UD on exactly the same principle :D ... ie while the base depicts, say, the rallying point for the skirmishers, the actual troops represented are operating ahead of the base (exactly as we surmise happens for integrated skirmishers).

If all that seems a difficult (conceptual) preposition to accept, then another possibility is that skirmishers (whether detached or integral) are trained to take individual shots and open fire at longer ranges than formed troops. This is a reasonable assumption also in as much as the formed body will cause greater harm in mass shooting when shooting at shorter ranges and so likely reserve their fire until closer. Thus, "skirmishers" shoot a greater distance than volley fire.

All that theorising aside, for me, there are two game aspects that skirmishers address really well in BE:

1. Dispersed formations and "skirmishers" were definitely one part of what distinguishes the "Napoleonic" period; if we remove that component, then we only serve to diminish the aesthetic of the game. For example, by simplifying the game to remove skirmishers then what is the difference between "light" infantry and "line" infantry formations ? Clearly there <was> a difference historically. And the effect of those "skirmishers" did feature regularly in historic account of all battles, and especially when "difficult" terrain is considered.

2. While I do like a "skirmisher" presence in a Napoleonic rule set, I would not want those to become the defining feature of game results. Right now, BE strikes a really good balance between the lesser damage caused by skirmishing fire as opposed to the far more decisive volley fire. To me, volley fire should principally determine the outcome of Napoleonic battles that we play at the scales represented by our toy soldiers. Napoleonic rules that push us toward melee before volley are misplaced IMHO. Likewise, in gaming terms, if artillery dominates a game outcome, then the balance is lost. Balancing melee vs artillery vs volley is the key to achieving a Napoleonic aesthetic for what is otherwise, after all, just a game. In BE detached skirmishers have a distinct contribution to make to game balance.

Lastly, to wrap up another over-long post, I particularly like how detached skirmishers in BE have to be employed with great care lest they become just a nasty little speed-bump from enemy cavalry striking at them from 10 UD away (column charge = no escape if the SK don't have supports or terrain to hide in). That's an awful LOT of table space to have to watch out for especially if those pesky cavalry are going to move later in the turn sequence than your detached skirmishers and can then set up that charge for next turn ! Nice.

Adrian Steer
Capitaine
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Enregistré le : ven. 4 sept. 2020 20:17

Re: Skirmishers in a building

Message par Adrian Steer » ven. 10 juin 2022 16:37

Yes I think giving skirmisher a 3UD range is fair enough as it represents the effective range as they ( in most cases) at trained above the normal standard of line troops which is point in the general direction of the enemy and pull the trigger. What I do think may need some thought is allowing a light infantry unit to multiply its frontage by two my understanding as to how they deployed was only about 50% of the men actually skirmished the rest formed rallying points ( and reserves) should they need it and can reach them. So I think only one skirmish unit per battalion would be reasonable. The other two bases are kept as a reserve. However as people say it gives a pretty good game so don't fix what its broken.

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