size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

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KeefM
Sergent Major
Messages : 77
Enregistré le : jeu. 26 déc. 2019 07:59

size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par KeefM » mer. 8 juin 2022 08:33

Apologies in advance for what will seem like a very long introduction to a very minor question ...


1. In the text on page 210 the wording is precise: "in 1814 and 1815 you can have LW units of LARGE size".

2. The Prussian troop tables on page 213 permit a large size option for all LW infantry units.

3. On page 104, the final bullet in the section titled "adjusting unit sizes" says that all infantry units are of MEDIUM size unless specified in the army notes.


So ...

In the Summer 1813 army list on pages 216 and 217, LW Infantry have no LARGE size options listed, so I can safely assume that all such units must be of MEDIUM size as being consistent with all three conditions above.

In the 1815 army list on page 219, all LW Infantry have an option for LARGE size. Again, very clear.

In the 1814 army list on pages 218 and 219, the Grenadier Brigade allows LARGE size LW Infantry units as an option. Clear !

So far, so good ... BUT ... in the same 1814 army list, the Infantry Brigade does <not> allow a LARGE size option for LW Infantry.

This seems a contradiction between the text on page 210 and the troop table options because (wait for it) there is no army list in which Poor LW Infantry can have a LARGE unit option and yet the troop tables and text clearly permit that.

And, the text from page 104 allows only MEDIUM sized infantry units unless specified in the army notes.


THE QUESTION (at last !)

Which condition holds true ? 1,2 or 3 ?

Specifically, does the expression "unless specified in the army notes" include reference to the text on page 210.

Or to the troop table options on page 213 ?

Or, as I suspect, does it really mean ONLY in options specified within individual army lists (eg pages 216 to 219) ? And, if it does mean this latter interpretation, then why even allow a LARGE size option at all for Poor LW Infantry in the troop tables on page 213 as there are no army lists in which this is possible.

OTOH, if we take a very literal interpretation of "army notes", then these actually only appear at the end of the lists; and none of those "notes" allow for any LARGE size LW Infantry units. (To illustrate further: there are differing treatments of Prussian LW Infantry when compared to the various Austrian army list "notes" which do specify LARGE size units AND which is further reinforced in the Austrian troop tables which only permit those also.)

And, if we don't take a literal approach to the expression "army notes", then any of the above conditions are equally valid.


Lastly, it would seem to be more historical (and far easier) to simply allow a LARGE size option for any and all LW Infantry in 1814 and 1815 as per the text on page 210. And perhaps more especially so for any "Poor" LW Infantry generally.



Sorry for the length of this very minor distraction ...

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par RogerGreenwood » mer. 8 juin 2022 09:07

In the army lists Landwehr are listed as large or medium. I will check the book. I use 1813 Prussian a lot with large LW units.

KeefM
Sergent Major
Messages : 77
Enregistré le : jeu. 26 déc. 2019 07:59

Re: size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par KeefM » jeu. 9 juin 2022 08:55

Tee hee ... I used to too, until I discovered that the LARGE size LW Infantry simply aren't available in 1813 :D ... those 5 pt LARGE Poor Landwehr Infantry unit are an absolute bargain for adding to your army break point and make superb (hidden) garrison units at deployment ! Dang !

Sorry !

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par RogerGreenwood » jeu. 9 juin 2022 17:34

In my book 1813 - 1815 Landwehr have ' large size option'. I don't see anything that doesn’t allow that.

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par RogerGreenwood » jeu. 9 juin 2022 17:50

I see the specific notes on Landwehr do say 1814 and 1815 only. Looks like I will change my lists a littl

Adrian Steer
Capitaine
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Enregistré le : ven. 4 sept. 2020 20:17

Re: size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par Adrian Steer » ven. 10 juin 2022 16:29

Ha

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par RogerGreenwood » ven. 10 juin 2022 22:10

Ha? This has to be one of the most obscure details in the list.

KeefM
Sergent Major
Messages : 77
Enregistré le : jeu. 26 déc. 2019 07:59

Re: size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par KeefM » dim. 12 juin 2022 00:13

And confusing ...

The actual army lists themselves do not allow a LARGE size option for Landwehr Infantry units except for in the Grenadier Brigade (only) in 1814, and for any LW Infantry in the 1815 list.

So, why then allow the option in the Troop Listings of LARGE size for Poor quality LW Infantry who don't appear in the above permitted options ?

Personally, as I said above, I think it should be carte blanche for 1814 & 1815; confusion resolved !

KeefM
Sergent Major
Messages : 77
Enregistré le : jeu. 26 déc. 2019 07:59

Re: size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par KeefM » ven. 7 juil. 2023 05:17

Bumping this topic back up to the top ... the matter remains unresolved in the v2 army lists.

To summarise:

1. The text on page 210 (english version v2) says that LW infantry can be large size in 1814 and 1815.

2. BUT. The lists themselves only allow large LW units in 1814 in the Grenadier Brigade only but NOT for LW units in the Infantry Brigades (page 218). All 1815 lists permit large size (page 219). No 1813 LW infantry are permitted a large size option in the lists (page 216).

3. HOWEVER. The troop tables lists on page 213 permit large size LW for all units (poor, normal and veteran LW infantry) and all years even though poor LW infantry are not allowed in 1814 or 1815, and do not have a large size option in the army lists anyway.


In short, this is contradictory and needs a clear ruling ...

a) can any LW infantry in 1814 be in large sized units (as per the text and troop tables) ? or just in the Grenadier Brigade (as per the lists) ?

b) can poor LW infantry ever have large size units as per the troop tables but contrary to the text and army lists ?



FWIW, I'd be inclined to stick with the options allowed in army lists only ! In effect, LW infantry only get to be large sized in 1815, or if in the Grenadier Brigade (only) in 1814 (ie there are no large sized poor LW infantry units at all).

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: size of Prussian Landwehr Infantry units

Message par RogerGreenwood » sam. 8 juil. 2023 21:36

I think your final paragraph sums up the situation. But that's just my opinion.

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