Artillery after melee

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prussianhussaruk
Brigadier
Messages : 33
Enregistré le : sam. 9 nov. 2019 17:25

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par prussianhussaruk » dim. 12 janv. 2020 12:24

KeefM a écrit :
dim. 12 janv. 2020 09:14
But of course in the charge move, the charging unit has to wheel to line up its centre with its target; oh, and the rules do say it is one unit vs one unit.
Can you point me to where it says that as I have only found on P57 'Several units against one.' During a shock combat, each enemy unit must be attacked separately. But how would you attack an artillery battery that had an infantry unit in contact with each flank and all the units being in a line.

Don

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par RogerGreenwood » dim. 12 janv. 2020 15:26

Page 42 fifth bullet.
Unfortunately this doesn't solve the problem. Unless lined up directly opposite the target, it may be impossible to charge a one base wide unit without first hitting something on its flank. Even then a wider unit will contact others.
One suspects that, to correctly obey the rules, some smart lateral movement in the preceding turn may be required.

prussianhussaruk
Brigadier
Messages : 33
Enregistré le : sam. 9 nov. 2019 17:25

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par prussianhussaruk » dim. 12 janv. 2020 16:37

RogerGreenwood a écrit :
dim. 12 janv. 2020 15:26
Page 42 fifth bullet.
Unfortunately this doesn't solve the problem. Unless lined up directly opposite the target, it may be impossible to charge a one base wide unit without first hitting something on its flank. Even then a wider unit will contact others.
One suspects that, to correctly obey the rules, some smart lateral movement in the preceding turn may be required.
I worry that you will end up with a situation where a unit cannot charge because it will contact two enemy units.

Don

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par RogerGreenwood » dim. 12 janv. 2020 18:11

Not only that, if not exactly lined up, a small wheel will mean that the leading corner will hit a different unit.
This doesn't look like an easily solved problem. However, I have not played enough to see if this really is a problem. I suspect (hope!) that the preliminary shooting will change the situation enough for this not to be an issue in most cases.

prussianhussaruk
Brigadier
Messages : 33
Enregistré le : sam. 9 nov. 2019 17:25

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par prussianhussaruk » dim. 12 janv. 2020 20:16

There was a similar problem with Black powder, as they to used single model base batteries. It has been resolved now by using two base for standard batteries and 3 bases for larger batteries.

If you look at the frontage of an average 8 gun battery in really terms, it was nearly as wide a a 600 man unit in 4 deep line.

Don

KeefM
Sergent Major
Messages : 77
Enregistré le : jeu. 26 déc. 2019 07:59

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par KeefM » lun. 13 janv. 2020 19:07

RogerGreenwood a écrit :
dim. 12 janv. 2020 15:26
Page 42 fifth bullet.
Unfortunately this doesn't solve the problem. Unless lined up directly opposite the target, it may be impossible to charge a one base wide unit without first hitting something on its flank. Even then a wider unit will contact others.
One suspects that, to correctly obey the rules, some smart lateral movement in the preceding turn may be required.
So ... to recap from the initial example (just to make sure I have got this correct), an infantry unit in line charges a group comprising an infantry unit in line next to an artillery battery next to an infantry unit in column, and the three opposing units are all in side contact and lined up with each other with their front edges in an unbroken line of base-to-base contact? (That's how I interpreted the depiction at the outset of this thread.)

If we start by saying that the charging unit declared its charge against the guns, then it would have had to wheel to align the centre of its front edge with that of the guns then move straight ahead and thus contacting the enemy infantry unit in line. And, bearing in mind that also on page 42 is the section titled "one unit against one unit" that gives us a steer as to the rule author's intentions about combat initiation. Therefore, my understanding is that the charge won't have be able to do so as a legal charge because (fifth bullet, page 42) says that if an obstable or another unit is in the way then the charge isn't possible and any wheel by the charging unit will hit the enemy infantry unit in line. That bullet point goes on to say that the player can select another target if one is available; and which is avialble in this instance in the form of the enemy infantry unit in line.

Given the depiction, there are only two ways (by my reckoning) that the charge could take place against the guns:
1. the charging unit was in column (that way it can wheel to line up its centre against the guns)
2. the charging unit was in line in front of the guns so that when charging its centre lined up directly with the centre of the guns

Setting aside any discussion about the ground occupied by the "real word" unit equivalents for a moment (becasue that is altogether another discussion), then it seems to me that the rules are giving a very good outcome in this particular instance. After all, in the "real world", would a unit be able to target a battery of guns deployed in between two other infantry units in this fashion, especially when approaching across the front of one of the flanking infantry units?

In essence, the depiction shows a four-base unit trying to squeeze into a two-base gap and ignore the larger unit in front of it.

As a slightly more extreme illustration of this point, if the guns were set back ever so slightly from the front edge, then they couldn't possibly be a target of a charge given the need for a minimum 3-base gap (also page 42).

If, on the other hand entirely, if the charging unit had declared its charge against the enemy infantry unit in line, then that is the combat that will be carried out (and not against the guns at all).

It seems to me that the "one unit against one unit" overview was an attempt to avoid the sort of situation through clarifying what the rules' intention was, namely that a charging unit targets a single target unit and then conducts its charge accordingly (ie by wheeling to align, etc).

Hopefully that helps ? Sorry for the earlier brevity, but a mobile phone aint the best for typing out longer answers :-) ! ANd additional apologies for this over-long answer too !

evilgong
Grenadier
Messages : 25
Enregistré le : lun. 14 janv. 2019 22:28

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par evilgong » lun. 13 janv. 2020 20:47

We know that more than one charging unit can attack an enemy unit because their is a -1 combat factor for each addition unit contacting the flank or rear.

RogerGreenwood
Chef de bataillon
Messages : 384
Enregistré le : ven. 29 nov. 2019 20:55

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par RogerGreenwood » lun. 13 janv. 2020 23:33

Yes, but we are discussing one attacking unit which may only contact a single enemy. Several attackers against one target is fine.

prussianhussaruk
Brigadier
Messages : 33
Enregistré le : sam. 9 nov. 2019 17:25

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par prussianhussaruk » mer. 15 janv. 2020 19:42

Having thought about this a little more I can see a situation where a unit that has to fight in line, is unable to charge two enemy units facing it in column.

Doesn't seem right to me.

Don

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hcaille
Général de Division
Messages : 848
Enregistré le : jeu. 3 janv. 2019 09:48

Re: Artillery after melee

Message par hcaille » lun. 3 févr. 2020 14:09

In brief :

AAAA XX BBBB

-----HHHH

An infantry in line H, charge artillery X which is supported by to infantry A and B.
Player H indicates it's target is artillery X.
H advance and contact A, X and B.
Combat is resolved between H and X counting A and B in support.
If X is eliminated, H can pursue and attack A or B (other unit counting as support for the other)
As H, A and B are already in contact, H need not to advance.

It is make sense ?

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